“The Charlie Rymer Golf Show” with Dustin Johnson: TaylorMade, Allen & DJ Help Charlie Find Wedges

Charlie needs new clubs, and he’s turned to three leading authorities on how to get his club fitting done right: Allen Terrell of the Dustin Johnson Golf School, TaylorMade Senior Director of Product Creation Tomo Bystedt, and 20-time PGA TOUR winner Dustin Johnson himself. In this episode, they help Charlie through the process of sizing up the right set of wedges.

Charlie Rymer:
I’m Charlie Rymer, and this is the Charlie Rymer Golf Show, powered by PlayGolfMyrtleBeach.com.

That’s the way I roll. I’m here at TPC Myrtle Beach in Murrells Inlet, South Carolina at the Dustin Johnson Golf School, and today, I’m going to get a really cool fitting from Allen Terrell, DJ’s longtime coach. Allen runs a golf school along with the Dustin Johnson Foundation. If you didn’t know, the Dustin Johnson Golf School, it just got named, again, by Golf Digest as being one of the top 24 golf schools in the country, and it’s a top three in the Southeast. I love getting new clubs, especially really cool TaylorMade stuff. Come on!

Hey, Allen. Good to see you, buddy!

Allen Terrell:
Hey, Charlie!

Charlie Rymer:
We’ve got to do the-

Allen Terrell:
Yeah, yeah. Air. Yeah.

Charlie Rymer:
… air touch. I’m going to tell you what, I’m happy to see you. I’m 52, folks, and things ain’t working like they used to, Allen. I need a little bit of help. Can you help me out?

Allen Terrell:
We can definitely help you out. We got you covered. We already got some stuff set up for you. We’re going to go through our woods, get you some extra yardage if you need it. I don’t know, you hit it pretty hard, but-

Charlie Rymer:
I need it. I need it.

Allen Terrell:
… we’re going to get those wedges dialed in so we get some birdies, and get some iron so we can get some more greens in regulation.

Charlie Rymer:
That’s awesome. Well, I got a little surprise for you. Not that I don’t trust you, but I got on the line, calling in on FaceTime… I mean, it’s a pretty big deal… Tomo Bystedt, and he’s the director of product creation for TaylorMade. So he might be able to help a little bit too.

Allen Terrell:
Oh, man. I need all the support you can give me, so I appreciate… Tomo’s a great, great resource. I’ve got a surprise. Tomo’s awesome. This guy, you may have heard of him, DJ’s going to call in.

Charlie Rymer:
No!

Allen Terrell:
He heard you were going to come by today. He wanted to be on your show and help us with your fit. So he’s going to call in from his boat down in Florida today.

Charlie Rymer:
The real Dustin Johnson?

Allen Terrell:
The real one.

Charlie Rymer:
U.S. Open champion?

Allen Terrell:
The real one.

Charlie Rymer:
20-time PGA TOUR winner-

Allen Terrell:
That’s him.

Charlie Rymer:
… long hitting, short talking?

Allen Terrell:
That’s definitely him.

Charlie Rymer:
Nothing bothers him?

Allen Terrell:
That’s him.

Charlie Rymer:
Let’s go. Come on!

Allen Terrell:
Let’s do it.

Charlie, wrong way, brother. We’re going to go down here.

Charlie Rymer:
Let’s go back.

Allen Terrell:
Come on. Down this way.

Charlie Rymer:
This way.

Allen Terrell:
Come on. I’ll get you ready. Just follow me.

Charlie Rymer:
All right. We’re back with the man that’s got probably the coolest job on the planet, even more cool than what me and you do, Tomo Bystedt. He’s in charge of all the great stuff that rolls out the doors at TaylorMade. He’s been with TaylorMade for 14 years. Tomo, on our last show we talked irons. I’m confident that I’ve got a set of irons that I’m absolutely going to love. This show we’re going to talk wedges.

You may or may not like this question, but I think you probably will. My impression is that TaylorMade, at first, was known for the drivers and the fairway metals. The irons fit in there, the rescues. When I went out and played on tour, looked in bags, even TaylorMade staffers, there weren’t a whole lot of wedges in bags for TaylorMade players. But you guys, these last few years, have absolutely busted it on your wedges. I see more and more on tour players and amateurs, especially good amateurs around the world. Have you consciously made an effort to pick up your wedge game over these past few years?

Tomo Bystedt:
Charlie, 100 percent, and you’re spot on. Our usage has gone up tremendously on tour in the last three or four years, as it has at retail as well. We’re selling a lot more wedges now, and honestly… for that, we have a guy named Billy Price who heads up our wedge and putter team, who has done an incredible job to make that all happen. Honestly, it’s been a dedication for the company. There’s been a renewed focus. I think after we launched M1, M2, we felt like, “Hey, we’re back into the TaylorMade stride and really killing it in our core categories.” We felt like, “Hey, we need to show more love to wedges and putters,” and I think it’s really paid dividends… last couple years. We’ve had tremendous success, obviously, with all our tour… well, winning tournaments, number one in the world, and so forth. So it’s been a great ride for the last few years in the wedges.

Allen Terrell:
Well, I’m going to be trying to help Charlie’s fitting and, obviously, gapping is a huge part of wedges and which wedge you choose. We get a lot here at the golf school the question about… Let’s say with a set of 790s, that’s a pitching wedge 45, so you’re going to have a pretty good gap between a P wedge and your S wedge. So that gap wedge is pretty huge for that 790 set. But what if they like to play more of a traditional wedge, 50 versus the A wedge, which is 50 in the 790? What distance difference would they may see, and why is that?

Tomo Bystedt:
Well, there’s a couple of things there. I think, first of all, the set wedge in the 790 is a hollow iron. It’s a thinner face iron. It’s going to have a little bit more speed than your typical gap wedge club. It’s not a massive distance difference. I would say it’s going to be in that maybe three to four yard range, loft for loft. So it… for people who are… If you’re on TrackMan or if you’re really good with your yardage, you’re going to notice a little bit of difference there.

So there’s a couple ways you can go. The one thing that I see a lot of people doing is, they could go a little stronger on… First of all, one option is, just be okay with a slightly bigger gap. If it’s three to four yards more bigger gap, some people are fine with that. If you don’t want that bigger gap and you want your gap center to be really consistent, what you could do is, you could actually weaken your pitching wedge a little bit, and also maybe go from a 50 to a 49 or something like that in your other wedge. So there’s a couple different options there in terms of loft to get you back to the gapping that you need.

Allen Terrell:
Okay. Sounds good.

Charlie Rymer:
Yeah. I don’t like those gaps. I like 45, 50, 55, 60, and it just make sense to me. Another thing that makes sense to me is, I’ve gone to a little bit lighter shaft in my iron, something, 105, 110 grams, and my irons, if I’m hitting a five iron, a seven iron, it feels really good, but when I get in a bunker or I’ve got a… and every now and then I do hit it in the rough around the green, quite frequently, actually… ball sitting down a little bit, I don’t like the feel of that lighter shaft. I like to go something that’s 125 or 130 grams, and I like it to be softer shaft than maybe what I’ve got in the rest of my irons. Is that something that you see a lot of players going to?

Tomo Bystedt:
Definitely. And I would say, traditionally, that has been the go-to approach for a lot of better players. They either go heavy shaft across the set, or they go a little heavier than their iron set into their wedges. For sure that’s a common thing. I think it’s a feel thing. A lot of people feel like they have a little bit more feel. They also go to, typically, a heavier swing weight too in the wedges, which it’s kind of built into the head design already. So if you just order them stock, they’re going to come at slightly heavier swing weights than your irons.

As for the flex thing, the way that I like to approach it as a little bit of, try to make a determination of each club of how often you hit that as a full shot versus around the green or a half shot. Because I do think a lot of people, if they match all their wedges to a softer or maybe heavier shaft, but then you end up using your gap wedge 95 percent of the time as a full shot, that doesn’t necessarily work out either. So you’ve got to figure out… especially with that gap wedge, that be a tricky club. I mean, I know for myself, I hit gap wedge almost never around the green, and I use it all the time for full shots from that 120 yard range. So I want something that really matches well with my irons on that, in terms of the feel and the weight of the shaft.

Charlie Rymer:
Yeah. It is a tricky thing, and that’s why I’m with an expert here, and Allen Terrell, with a TrackMan set up behind us. It’s something we’re going to dial in. Tomo, before we let you go, I want to ask you a little bit… I love the Hi-Toe wedge. I grew up playing a Ping Eye 2 lob wedge, and it just has that similar shape to it. But I love the idea that the grooves are out on the toe, because around the green you get element on the toe a lot, and that’s self-explanatory to me, where the grooving is and all that. But what I want to ask you about is this cool looking material that I see in these wedges. Is that copper beryllium? What is that material that’s in these wedges, and what effect does it have on the feel of the shot?

Tomo Bystedt:
Well so, it’s an interesting thing. Those heads are still… carbon steel, that 8620 carbon steel. So they’re not any weird copper material. That copper finish that you see on there is a finish. We actually do a special plating on those that creates that beautiful look. Actually, on top of the plating we do put this slightly darker finish that then gets worn off. So it gives it that slightly, I don’t know how to say this, but sort of an antique look to it. It really has a nice, rich finish. I think a lot of people have said what you said, that they just love how that looks. It looks rich, and it just looks really nice in the bag too. So yeah, that’s been popular for sure.

Charlie Rymer:
Yeah. There’s something about… I’ve tried to use unfinished wedges, and I know a lot of tour players do that, but a lot of golfers are… we’re so anal that… The unfinished, it looks different every day. It’s like it changed overnight. I like the fact that this one isn’t going to… Suddenly, the next morning, I’m not going to wake up and go, “Oh my God. What happened to my lob wedge? There’s a monster living in my golf bag now.” I know that finish is a lot more stable. Allen, you got anything else for our genius here?

Allen Terrell:
One last question. I know with the more lofted clubs, the grooves run the full length of the face, and from my understanding, that was for more deeper rough shots, premise. Why would that not be for maybe the 54s and so forth?

Tomo Bystedt:
Yeah. Great question. Great question. One of the things that we looked at with the Hi-Toe was… And honestly, here’s another interesting tidbit, is DJ was really fundamental in creating the Hi-Toe for us. We worked with him a lot because… The reason, really, the grooves go all the way across is for the open face shots. You guys know this as golfers, when you get that shot around the green, whether it’s out of the sand or the rough, or just a lob shot of any kind, you’re going to have that… impact that ball center face, because you’re going to be scarily close to the hosel at that point, right? So you’re going to want to miss on the side of the toe side, and as the ball slides up the face, it’s actually going to come across where the score line is typically ended, into the toe, and then you’re losing spin.

So we wanted to bring those score lines all the way across, again, in those higher lofts, the 56, 58, and the 60. Now, the reason we don’t have it in the shorter irons, is because you don’t really hit open face shots with a 52-degree wedge. Again, it’s more of a straight face shot. You hit more full shots with it, or you chipper on the green with, again, straight face to the ball. One of the things that can happen if you have score lines all the way across in those lofts, is you have a slightly skewed perception of where the center face is. The way that score lines are typically arranged… indication of where you need to aim on the face to get the best contact. We didn’t want to give that up on those straight face type shots, and that’s why there’s a different thing there.

Allen Terrell:
That makes sense.

Charlie Rymer:
Well, Tomo, thanks for helping me dial in my wedges. Again, this is my show, so we’re dialing me in, not Allen, but you mentioned that DJ helping the design of this Hi-Toe wedge. We’re going to check in with him next on that. Tomo, next show, if you don’t mind doing another show with us, we’re going to talk driver and fairway metal.

Tomo Bystedt:
Perfect. Awesome. Looking forward to it.

Charlie Rymer:
All right. Appreciate it, Tomo.

All right, back with Dustin Johnson. I’m getting a wedge fitting, and I’m such a big deal around here, my man, Allen Terrell, he just gets Dustin Johnson on a FaceTime to help me with my wedge fitting. They call me The Big Timer, DJ. Did you know that?

Dustin Johnson:
I did not.

Charlie Rymer:
All right. Well, you learn something new every day, and I’m hoping to learn something from you. Tomo Bystedt from TaylorMade was just on, and he was telling me that you had a lot of input on the Hi-Toe TaylorMade wedge. Tell me about that a little bit.

Dustin Johnson:
Well, especially once they changed the grooves a while ago, obviously, the ball started not spinning quite as much and launching a lot higher. So the technology behind it is to get the ball to launch a little bit lower and create a little bit more spin. For me, because I always grew up with… we played wedges pretty… played them low with a lot of spin, and it’s a little easier to control.

Allen Terrell:
Yeah. So, even DJ, he has a 64. If he hits a 64 around the green, just by the way that Hi-Toe’s made, he can hit it lower than the 60, actually, milled grind.

Charlie Rymer:
Spin the britches off of it. That’s what we used to call it up in Fort Mill, South Carolina. Yeah, I love this Hi-Toe. I think this is going to end up in my bag. I like the shape of it. The thing that I find challenging about going through a fitting, is when you start dealing with the gaps in the wedges. I’ve always been a 45, 50, 55, 60 in terms of the gapping on my wedges, because it just makes sense to have them five degrees apart. What kind of gapping do you normally play with in your wedges?

Dustin Johnson:
Well, so forever I played 48, which is pitching wedge, 54, 60, and then I added in the 64, and then I’ll… Right now I’ve got 48, 52, 56, 60, but I still will carry a 54 and a 64 with me, depending on the golf course. A shorter course where I’ll hit a lot of wedges, I’ll go with 52, 56, 60. And then a course where I might not need as many wedges or that number where I feel like a 52 and 56 will help me, I’ll put in the 64. A longer, harder golf course where I feel like I’ll use the 64 around the greens a lot, I’ll put it in. But I’ve got numbers for all the clubs, so it’s not really a big deal to switch them in and out because I know how far they go. So it really won’t make a difference which wedge set up I have in.

Charlie Rymer:
We’re in a teaching bay here at your school. We got all the bells and whistles, a TrackMan behind us. Allen, I know you guys have utilized TrackMan a lot, in particular, a few years ago when he really got going. When he got to number one in the world the first time, that wedge game is what really, I think, propelled him there, and this technology really helped. How did you guys use that to really dial in that wedge game?

Allen Terrell:
No, that was all DJ, coming up with a system of how far he swings his arms back equals this distance, and he did that through his wedges and came up with his own system. He warms up with TrackMan. He uses it probably every day, he practices, not club numbers, but just more distance control.

Dustin Johnson:
When I’m on tour, yeah, I use it every day to warm up, to practice. If I’m hitting balls I’ve got it behind me. I feel like no matter how I’m swinging the golf club, I can always control and hit good wedge shots, because it’s a shorter swing. You’re not really using a lot of body, so it’s pretty easy to control. So I feel like as long as I’m hitting my numbers with my wedges too, it helps with my full swing. It’s something that I’ve just been doing for a long time, and it’s really helped me improve my game.

Charlie Rymer:
You mentioned that you have the 64 in there from time to time. I’ve tried to hit a 64. I’ve played a lot of golf in my life, and it don’t work for me. I know it helps you a lot, and I’ve loved watching you hit it, but for the average golfer out there, is trying a 64 maybe something you’d recommend?

Dustin Johnson:
Probably not. It’s not for everybody. To try it, absolutely. It might fit your game, it might not. For me, I use it strictly around the greens. Very rarely will you ever see me… Actually, never will you see me hit it full. If I do get in a situation where I’ve got a front flag, maybe 40, 50-yard shot, I would pitch with it, but that’s about it. Mostly, I use it to chip and bunker shots.

Charlie Rymer:
Well, DJ, we appreciate you running us through your bag as it pertains to wedges. We got one more show coming up. We’re going to talk the really fun stuff, driver. Will you stick with us for one more show?

Dustin Johnson:
I think so.

Charlie Rymer:
I’m going to take that as a yes. We’ll be right back. Thank you!

All right, Allen, we’ve learned a lot about wedges today and, in particular, I like hearing DJ talk about all the wedges that he has and how he uses TrackMan to dial everything in. I don’t have quite that much time, being a working man and all, but I do get excited about wedge play. I think the first thing that we got to talk about, and it’s really confusing to me a lot of times, is gapping. With the P790 irons, what do you think on gapping? What should I be looking at in terms of lofts with my wedges?

Allen Terrell:
Well, we know that you like the 790 iron. We decided you’d like the A wedge. It’s called a gap wedge, approach wedge, everyone calls it something different. That’s about 50 degrees. The thing is, with the technology of the 790 and the thin face, that 50 is going to go a little bit further than the traditional 50 wedge. So the gapping there is very, very important for us. So instead of changing things around, it’s better to maybe have a little bit of a stronger 54. Instead of 56, we’ll go to 54. Even though it sounds like it’s only four degrees, the technology’s a little different, so I think we’ll hit our gaps pretty good.

Charlie Rymer:
Yeah. And these grooves, the ball’s going to spin a little bit more, so that’s going to restrict the distance a little. So, now when I look at my set, I’m looking at a 40 degree 9 iron, a 45 degree pitching wedge, a 50 degree A wedge. I can do the math on that. That’s five degrees. Rather than going 55 or 56 to the next wedge, you’re saying 54, and that should keep me in the ballpark?

Allen Terrell:
Yeah, and I know it doesn’t sound like perfect gap, but the technology and everything, it’s not going to be, in the number-wise, perfect on the club, but on the yardage, that’s what we’re looking for.

Charlie Rymer:
The next thing that I want to talk to you about is, I’ve gone to the lighter weight steel, 105 grams. I’m not going to be comfortable… And Tomo talked about this a little bit too. I’m not going to be comfortable with a 105-gram shaft and the 60-degree wedge when I’ve got to hit a short bunker shot or a field shot around the green. It just feels too light to me. Is there an option where I can go up in weight in that steel shaft, just in these wedges?

Allen Terrell:
Yeah. For sure. The good thing is, the way the wedges are designed with TaylorMade, they already are going to be a little heavier head. Of course, we’d like to probably put you in a 115, 120-gram shaft to give you that little weight in the bunker, in the rough. You want to have a feeling of some mass going through there. So, yeah, we definitely would weight you up a little bit more.

Charlie Rymer:
Okay. And then, finally… And I want to hit a couple. I want to see how far these go, and I want to see how they feel too. The last thing I want to talk about is bounce. Boy, there’s a lot of options in bounce, and it’s confusing to people. I feel like I’m pretty fortunate, because I’ve played the same bounce my whole life. What are your thoughts on bounce and the decisions that people should make when they go through a fitting?

Allen Terrell:
Bounce, to me, is like training wheels. It’s there if you need it. If your technique needs it, if you expose the leading edge more, you may want to get a little bit more bounce. If your technique’s pretty good and you deliver that club pretty level coming through, you can be pretty medium, like 10. Here in the Southeast we’re playing somewhat soft conditions, it’s not very firm. You want a little bit of a bounce to help you in those little bit of a soft, dormant Bermuda lies that we have about three months a year.

Charlie Rymer:
Yeah. Well, the other thing, people don’t realize, touring professionals, they fly literally halfway around the world, jump out of an airplane, and they’re playing different types of golf courses from one week to the next. So bounce is something that’s really important. If you just play one or a couple of golf courses and you play them regionally, make a decision and stick with it. But I still get on the road some, so I gravitate towards bounces that are in the middle, just so I have wedges. I’m not like DJ, I can’t switch out every week, but I want to have something that, if I go and it’s a little bit softer, I’ll be okay. If it’s a little bit firmer, I’ll be okay. So for that reason, I’ve gone with the… You call this the ATV grind-

Allen Terrell:
That is. Yeah.

Charlie Rymer:
… on the Hi-Toe? Then, immediately, when I saw this in the 54 I said, “That’s me.” What grind would that be?

Allen Terrell:
That’s a standard bounce grind there.

Charlie Rymer:
Standard?

Allen Terrell:
Yeah.

Charlie Rymer:
Just like me a-

Allen Terrell:
Traditional standard.

Charlie Rymer:
… standard guy. Can I hit a couple of these and-

Allen Terrell:
Absolutely. Let’s get some yardages.

Charlie Rymer:
You got it.

Allen Terrell:
What club? You want to start with a 54?

Charlie Rymer:
Yeah, I’m going to hit a 54. I just want to get an idea of how far they’re flying. I’m a little like what DJ said, I never really like hitting wedges really hard.

Allen Terrell:
How far-

Charlie Rymer:
That’s a nice flight, good little shape. That’s pretty solid. I’m guessing that’s right at 100 yards with a 54?

Allen Terrell:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s around 95. We got a little bit of wind in us, but the good thing about the Hi-Toe, where they have put the CG, it helps bring the launch down. They moved the CG a little higher, and that helps us bring the launch down a little bit lower.

Charlie Rymer:
I’ll tell you, that’s one thing I’ve always noticed, with good wedge players, they don’t just blast it straight up in the air. Wedge players hit the ball as low as they can because you get a little bit better feel. Let me hit just one of these with a 60. I want to see what that feels like. See, I don’t ever want to hit that-

Allen Terrell:
Had a lot of spin.

Charlie Rymer:
That’s got to be about 70 yards. Yeah, that one is spinning, but I don’t ever want to feel like I’m hitting my lob wedge. I don’t ever want to feel… 80 yards, max, is all I want to do. Yeah. Nice shape, nice feel. Allen, I think we got a winner in those P790 irons, pitching wedge and the A wedge. A wedge is 50 degrees, 54 in this Hi-Toe, 60 in the Hi-Toe, a little heavier shaft. I’m ready to get out on the golf course.

Allen Terrell:
Yeah, you’re ready.

Charlie Rymer:
Appreciate it, buddy.

Allen Terrell:
You got it.

Charlie Rymer:
Thank you.

Thanks for joining us. I’m Charlie Rymer. We’ll see you next time on the Charlie Rymer Golf Show, powered by PlayGolfMyrtleBeach.com!